NEWSWEEK: I take it you were really into the Scouts to stay with them for so long. JAMES DALE: Oh, definitely. I wanted to join the Scouts before I even could. When I was six there wasn’t a way to. Now there’s a younger scouting program I think that starts at six or something. But when I was [eight], that was the earliest I could get in. My father and brother were already involved, as was my mother, so it really was something I wanted to be a part of and I joined as soon as I could.
Over the course of those 12 years you earned more than 30 merit badges. What kinds of things did you do with the Scouts? It’s a lot of different things. One of the things that was really good about scouting was that it made every kid really feel that they belong, and in other sports and activities that I was involved in, you’d be a bench warmer, you either did or didn’t make the mark. If you didn’t quite make it, you just really weren’t a part of it. In scouting, one of the reasons why I think it appealed to me and also appealed to a lot of other gay kids, is that it made everybody feel valued. Everybody was always a member and always active.
What kind of things did you do? Camping, fishing? I definitely did all of those things, [plus] first aid. Many, many different things, from different types of sciences, wilderness survival, camping, cooking, fishing. I think really what I got out of it was community and a place where I found acceptance, a place where I was made to feel good about myself. I think those are things that all teens, whether they’re gay or non-gay, need growing up. A place where they fit in, essentially.
You were so comfortable, so into it, that you chose to be in the leadership. It was almost a seamless transition. Sure, when I turned 18 I officially went from being a youth member to an adult member, but they needed adult leaders in my troop and I was very happy to volunteer and stick with it.
One of the things that was played up in the Supreme Court case was the Boy Scouts’s mission of instilling values in young boys. Was that something you got from it? Definitely. But when I look at the definition of morally straight, which is really what they based this whole case on, it says to be a person of strong moral character, to respect and defend the rights of all people, to be honest and open in your relationships with other people. This really isn’t about sexuality at all. It never has been. I don’t know where this [policy] came from. For 12 years, I was a part of scouting and had never heard of this policy. I never taught this policy. It wasn’t anything that seemed at all essential to the program. My parents agreed that they’d never heard anything about it. So I don’t know where that came from, but it really wasn’t what scouting was all about for me and for many other people that were part of the program.
Were there other values you thought were essential to the Scouts? Community service, honesty, giving back to your community. So to take a leadership role in your community and to volunteer. Those were all things that were definitely part of scouting. It kind of flies in the face of this [Boy Scouts’s] position that so much of what I was taught in scouting was to stand up for yourself, to stand up for other people, to be a part of your community. That’s essentially what I was doing, which prompted my expulsion from scouting.
If the decision had gone the other way, would you have wanted to rejoin the Scouts? Definitely. I’d like to have found a place for scouting in my life. I think it was a great program and I think I wouldn’t be who I am today without the value and wonderful things I took out of scouting. What we’ve seen over the past few years-the decade that this case has been going on-is that there are gay kids out there. That was not something that was thought of ten, fifteen years ago, but now since things like [the murder of] Matthew Shepard, we’ve seen the emergence of gay youth. America has said, “Oh my gosh, there are gays kids out there.” Who’s going to support them? Where are they going to find community and acceptance? For me, that was the Boy Scouts. I don’t know where the Boy Scouts are going to tell them to go, now that they’ve said they’re not welcome.
What is going to happen now? Your case is over, but what’s next? Legally, my case is over, but I really believe this issue is far from over. I believe that now, mothers and fathers and Scouts across the country are going to say I don’t want to be part of a program that discriminates. I don’t want this program to discriminate. I think [Boy Scout] funders and sponsors are going to say the same thing….It’s a very shortsighted victory because, although they think they may have won now, what they’re really going to do is destroy a very great program by being intolerant. Because of that intolerance, America’s not going to want to be a part of it. They’ve essentially turned themselves into the Boy Scouts of some Americans…I think they’re making themselves less relevant to the world….America’s youth are coming to accept and understand gay and lesbian issues at a greater rate than older Americans. So I think the Boy Scouts are making themselves an outmoded organization. They should be there for youth. They should be addressing issues that youth have to deal with. They shouldn’t be turning their back on issues that are important to youth.
Is this a setback in the fight for gay rights? More than anything, it’s a setback for the Boy Scouts of America. Over ten years, I’ve seen so many wonderful things moving forward. We’ve heard about gay marriage. We’ve heard about gay families. We’ve heard about the existence of gay youth. There have been more than 700 gay-straight alliances that have sprung up in high schools across the nation. Reasons like that lead me to feel very, very hopeful about the direction that America is moving in. I think this is a setback. A minor setback, though, in the big picture. Of course, I wish it didn’t happen and it does sadden me that this case went that way. But, overall, I’m very hopeful because I know that people are going to look back on this in shame.
Any regrets? I’m not embarrassed to have been a part of [the Scouts] and I don’t regret the ten-year battle that this thing has taken. Of course, I wish that the outcome had been different, but I don’t regret one single part of it. If I had a son, which I plan to do, and he wanted to be in the Scouts, I wouldn’t advise him to go there because I think the organization has gone in a different direction than where I saw it.
What’s next in the fight for gay rights? Do you turn your attention from the Boy Scouts to something else now? For me, personally, I sort of need to regroup. I’ve put so much of my life on hold for 10 years with this case. Some closure is nice to have. Once again, I wish it was a different verdict. But it’s not just a me fight. When it all started I said, “How could they do this to me?” Over ten years I’ve realized it’s not about me, it’s about so much more. That’s where the fight goes now. It goes to other people and it goes to sponsoring organizations. It goes to churches… They’re going to pull their support from scouting and I think it’s sad that the Scouts have made them do that.
You started at 19; now you’re 29. Did you ever think of walking away? You stick with something. This is not something I could have walked away from. That was never an option or a possibility. The Scouts never taught me to give up on something. So I think that I’ve fought the good fight and I saw my part through to completion. But I think that maybe now the torch gets passed to somebody else. There are a lot of people out there that are really upset by this and I challenge them to take the next step.
